I disagree about TF, it does have its place, when used properly, if it wasn't for TF I would do even less shoots than I am now.

The problem is TF is very rarely used as it shoud be, it's failry simple -

TF should be a collaboration between model and photographer. a mix of ideas if you like.

If a photogrpaher has an idea, he hires a model and she dosen't get images.

If a model has an idea, she pays the photographer.

Its part paid / part TFCD which is to blame, the model should get either a CD or paid.

I also think though, that some models expect way to much in terms of payment, I have no problem in paying a good professional model like Brit or Chrissie as I know the standard of work they produce.

There are inexperienced models who have done one or two shoots and expect £50 or £60 per hour, that is unacceptable.

Cheers
Les

I do agree that for you doing tf is pointless, you are very well known Britney so you will give photographers exposure by using their images but models like yourself are few and far between.

TF is fine when done correctly, I don't think it ruins the industry at all.
If I really want to work with someone then I will contact them for a TF shoot. I want the images, not the money. I might never be a millionaire but money isnt really my driving force and never has been.

When I started I could never have just strolled onto a forum and demanded payment from anyone. I wouldn't have had the confidence to go self employed because I did not know the industry (I guess theres still some things I don't understand). I only posted my first 'Looking for paid work' thread earlier this year.

Now when I see someone with little experience and crap images demanding payment I laugh. Just like I would laugh if a photographer who had no experience demanded payment from me.

I'm not ashamed about doing TF shoots, I love it and think its great for fellow creatives to work together without thinking about the $$'s. Although I have to pay the bills this is also my hobby which I get great pleasure from being part of so if im enjoying myself creating images with likeminded people then Im a happy chicka.

Cx

Interesting turn in this discussion.... proving to be an enjoyable debate

Okay, as a noob, if TF shoots weren't an option for me, I'd be very limited in developing my experience as a photographer. I know I've paid to work with good models a few times, and each time I've done it, its because I know I'll get good shots, AND it'll be a learning experience for me.
I know in those cases, I'd be delighted if I took a shot good enough to make it into their ports, and I'd be very happy if they chose to use it for that. From a noob point of view, that's great exposure for me, helping to get my name out there.

TF shoots with models is something I'm going to continue to do for the time being because I don't feel confident enough in my skills to produce 'stunning' every time, and until I am there, I don't feel its reasonable to try and charge a model for a shoot.
In addition, I agree that TF has to be a collaboration between all parties, and has to be fair, with the outcomes agreed upon.

If I pay a model though, they're my shots, and its my call what to do with them.
If a model pays me for the shots, they'll be his/hers to put in their port or not. I wouldn't expect to put them in mine though.

TF is vital for someone like me starting out, so I can develop a port, develop my skills, and develop a reputation. Without it, I'd be screwed.

Craig

I didnt mean to offend anyone with my TF comments, especially not you Chrissie with all the amazing images you have.
I just see it used badly,with the onset of the internet scene, and it has spiralled out of control.sadly tf has been abused over the years and photographers expect professional models to work for free or for very little, and it goes the other way too whereby pro photographers are expected to shoot a model for free just because she/he is pretty etc.

yes tf works if both want to work on a mutual creative basis together and both are going to benefit.

but for a beginner i think photographers are better hiring a pro so they can worry about the technical side and not about posing/styling/organising the model.

and vice versa for models.

I do my job for the love of the art too and know that it will never make me a millionaire (heres hoping lol)....but i have to make a living too, and sadly images do not pay the bills.

Brit007 wrote:

I didnt mean to offend anyone with my TF comments, especially not you Chrissie with all the amazing images you have. I just see it used badly,with the onset of the internet scene, and it has spiralled out of control.sadly tf has been abused over the years and photographers expect professional models to work for free or for very little, and it goes the other way too whereby pro photographers are expected to shoot a model for free just because she/he is pretty etc. yes tf works if both want to work on a mutual creative basis together and both are going to benefit. but for a beginner i think photographers are better hiring a pro so they can worry about the technical side and not about posing/styling/organising the model. and vice versa for models. I do my job for the love of the art too and know that it will never make me a millionaire (heres hoping lol)....but i have to make a living too, and sadly images do not pay the bills.

Totally agree with everything you just said
I think everyone would agree that it would be great if the lines were re-drawn across the industry, and would benefit everyone as a result.

Brit007 wrote:

but for a beginner i think photographers are better hiring a pro so they can worry about the technical side and not about posing/styling/organising the model.

I utterly agree wtih you, as has already been said on another forum, you are not worrying about the models poses.

However, not everyone can afford to pay for models, obvioulsy I do on occasion but I can't afford to pay everytime, I also know that I am not good enough for models to pay me.

This is why I started doing weddings and kiddy portraits, problem since moving I need to rebuild a client list and reputation.

Cheers
Les

It certainly didn't offend me, I was merely stating my POV, had I not met Chrissie, I probably would have stopped or greatly reduced doing modelling shoots for a variety or reasons, however it gave us both a reason to explore different aspects of... well you can probably tell from some of the results, actually the whole event has given me a different incite, for which I will be eternally grateful.

Yes TF is often used for the wrong reasons and it should always be a 50/50 deal or its just not fair to one or the other and yep good TF work will get you paid work, or at least can do.

From my personal experience, booking an experienced model is a very good plan when you are starting out, you have less to have to concentrate on if the model knows what they are doing, it certainly helped me a lot, Brit of course plaid a significant part of that.

Cannot possibly comment on how the internet modelling scene has affected the industry as a whole as that was all before my time working with models.

From a personal point of view I think there are probably two types of TFP/TFCD which are markedly different.

One is where either the model or the photographer is at a level with the experience that they can pretty much guarantee the quality and hence value of their output beforehand. The second is where the parties are inexperienced and are looking for practice and are therefore happy to take the gamble of what the outcome is likely to be.

For me because I am so far down at the bottom of the learning curve that I am spending so much of my time still getting used to the technical aspects that I feel I wouldn't get the full benefit that I could from an experienced model yet and so intend to do a couple more of the second type of shoot so that I am more comfortable with what I am actually doing before I then invest in learning from a more experienced model.

Where the problem comes in this type of system is where people wrongly value either their own work or the work of someone they are going to do a shoot with.

There is also the aspect that to me it is a hobby and don't believe it will ever be anything but and as such although I will still strive for the best I can do I still get an enjoyment out of doing things the hard way.

Dont get me started, Im fed up being contacted by " models " saying that they want to work with me then finding that they want paid, I look at their portfolio to find they are really bad, taken by someone who wouldnt know a good image from a bad one. They then admit that they have no or little experience but they want paid......Maybe 5 years ago I should have said " let me do your wedding, it will cost £1600, by the way, its my first one"

I thought the point of tf was to help both parties, the model gains experience and images that she / he can use, the photographer tries out new ideas.

If I had a need for a model to fulfil a clients request, yes I would hire.

Dont get me wrong, there are models on this site who I wouldnt offend by asking to do TF work as I know the experience and the effort they put in.

At the end of the day its image quality not quantity, I bet if we all still used film we wouldnt be so keen to snap away and end up with a lot of "okay" shots.

Lee

[quote="craigmcguire"]

Brit007 wrote:

I just see it used badly,with the onset of the internet scene, and it has spiralled out of control.sadly tf has been abused over the years and photographers expect professional models to work for free or for very little, and it goes the other way too whereby pro photographers are expected to shoot a model for free just because she/he is pretty etc. yes tf works if both want to work on a mutual creative basis together and both are going to benefit. but for a beginner i think photographers are better hiring a pro so they can worry about the technical side and not about posing/styling/organising the model. and vice versa for models. .

You already know my thoughts on the matter Brit and how worn down I feel by the seemingly endless number of requests I get to shoot on a TF* basis. I actually find it insulting to be approached to shoot TF* by anyone simply because they feel they have a pretty face. Quite simply for someone such as me whose only source of income is my photography TF* doesn't pay the bills and I've become increasingly depressed by the state of the industry to the degree that I'm left exploring avenues outside of the modelling world to earn my keep.

Across the model internet sites TF* is abused to the degree that many people view it as a cheap option to get people in front of the camera or to obtain images. I've lost count of the number of agencies who have approached me and offered to put models my way in return for a few images. What some people fail to appreciate is that not every man on the face of the earth is actually interested in getting a string of hotties in front of the camera just to ogle them and take pictures of them which I feel is best left to the GWC types who litter many sites.

What the increase in TF* actually achieves is nothing more than devaluing the worth of the professional which ever side of the camera they operate from. Yes professionals do occasionally collaborate when they have a shared creative vision in mind that can be seen as being of mutual benefit but the bottom line is professionals work for pay and giving your work away in exchange for somebody elses time doesn't put food on your table.